Index of the Warren Commission Hearings
Testimony of John A. McCone and Richard M.
Helms
- The Chairman.
- The Commission will be in order.
Director McCone, it is customary for the Chairman to make a short statement to
the witness as to the testimony that is expected to be given. I will read it at
this time.
Mr. McCone will be asked to testify on whether Lee Harvey Oswald was ever an
agent, directly or indirectly, or an informer or acting on behalf of the Central
Intelligence Agency in any capacity at any time, and whether he knows of any
credible evidence or of any conspiracy either domestic or foreign involved in
the assassination of President Kennedy, also with regard to any suggestions and
recommendations he may have concerning improvements or changes in provisions for
the protection of the President of the United States.
Would you please rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are
about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
- Mr. McCone.
- I do.
- The Chairman.
- Will you be seated, please? Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. McCone, will you state your name?
- Mr. McCone.
- My name is John Alex McCone.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Do you have an official position with the U.S. Government?
- Mr. McCone.
- Yes, sir; I am Director of Central Intelligence.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Have you been Director for some time?
- Mr. McCone.
- Yes; a little over 2 1/2 years.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Where do you live, Mr. McCone?
- Mr. McCone.
- I live at 3025 Whitehaven Street in Washington.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Are you familiar with the records and how they are kept by the Central
Intelligence Agency as to whether a man is acting as an informer, agent,
employee, or in any other capacity for that Agency?
- Mr. McCone.
- Yes; I am generally familiar with the procedures and the records that are
maintained by the Central Intelligence Agency. Quite naturally, I am not
familiar with all of the records because they are very extensive.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Have you determined whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald, the suspect in
connection with the assassination of President Kennedy, had any connection with
the Central Intelligence Agency, informer or indirectly as an employee, or any
other capacity?
- Mr. McCone.
- Yes; I have determined to my satisfaction that he had no such connection,
and I would like to read for the record----
- Mr. Rankin.
- Will you tell us briefly the extent of your inquiry?
- Mr. McCone.
- In a form of affidavit, I have gone into the matter in considerable detail
personally, in my inquiry with the appropriate people within the Agency,
examined all records in our files relating to Lee Harvey Oswald. We had
knowledge of him, of course, because of his having gone to the Soviet Union, as
he did, putting him in a situation where his name would appear in our name file.
However, my examination has resulted in the conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald
was not an agent, employee, or informant of the Central Intelligence Agency. The
Agency never contacted him, interviewed him, talked with him, or received or
solicited any reports or information from him, or communicated with him directly
or in any other manner. The Agency never furnished him with any funds or money
or compensated him directly or indirectly in any fashion, and Lee Harvey Oswald
was never associated or connected directly or indirectly in any way whatsoever
with the Agency. When I use the term "Agency," I me!
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an the Central Intelligence Agency, of course.
- Representative Ford.
- Does that include whether or not he was in the United States, in the Soviet
Union, or anyplace?
- Mr. McCone.
- Anyplace; the United States, Soviet Union, or anyplace.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. McCone, is that the affidavit you are going to supply the Commission in
connection with our request for it?
- Mr. McCone.
- Yes; this is the substance of the affidavit which I will supply to you.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to mark that Exhibit 870 and have it introduced in
evidence as soon as we receive it from Mr. McCone as a part of this record.
- The Chairman.
- It may be admitted.
(Commission Exhibit No. 870 was marked for identification and received in
evidence.)
- Mr. Rankin.
- Would you tell us about your procedures in regard to having an agent or
informer or any person acting in that type of capacity? Does that have to pass
through your hands or come to your attention in the Agency?
- Mr. McCone.
- No; it does not have to come through my personal hands.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Without disclosing something that might be a security matter, could you tell
us how that is handled in a general way in the Agency?
- Mr. McCone.
- Mr. Helms, who is directly responsible for that division of the Agency's
activities as a Deputy Director, might explain. Would that be permissible?
- Mr. Rankin.
- Could we have him sworn then?
- The Chairman.
- Yes.
- The Chairman.
- Would you raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear the
testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
- Mr. Helms.
- I do.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. Helms, you heard the inquiry just directed to Mr. McCone. Could you
answer the question directly?
- Mr. Helms.
- Yes; we have a specific procedure which we follow in all cases where the
Agency is in contact, for the purposes of acquiring intelligence or whatever the
case may be, with an individual. We not only have a record of the individual's
name, but we also usually get information of a biographical nature. We then
check this individual's name against our record. At that point we make a
determination as to whether we desire to use this man or not to use him. It
varies from case to case as to how many officers may be involved in approving a
specific recruitment. May I go off the record?
(Discussion off the record.)
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. Helms, did you have anything to do on behalf of your Agency with
determining whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald was acting in any of the capacities
I have described in my questions to Mr. McCone?
- Mr. Helms.
- Yes; I did.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Will you tell us what you did in that regard?
- Mr. Helms.
- On Mr. McCone's behalf, I had all of our records searched to see if there
had been any contacts at any time prior to President Kennedy's assassination by
anyone in the Central Intelligence Agency with Lee Harvey Oswald. We checked our
card files and our personnel files and all our records.
Now, this check turned out to be negative. In addition I got in touch with those
officers who were in positions of responsibility at the times in question to see
if anybody had any recollection of any contact having even been suggested with
this man. This also turned out to be negative, so there is no material in the
Central Intelligence Agency, either in the records or in the mind of any of the
individuals, that there was any contact had or even contemplated with him.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. Helms----
- Mr. Dulles.
- Could I ask one question there? Do you recall or do you know at what time
the name of Lee Harvey Oswald was carded, first came to your attention so it
became a matter of record, in the Agency?
- Mr. Helms.
- Sir, I would want to consult the record to be absolutely accurate, but it is
my impression that the first time that his name showed up on any Agency records
was when he went to the Soviet Union.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. Helms, in connection with your work you have supplied information to the
Commission and we have requested many things from your Agency. Can you tell the
Commission as to whether or not you have supplied us all the information the
Agency has, at least in substance, in regard to Lee Harvey Oswald?
- Mr. Helms.
- We have; all.
- Representative Ford.
- Has a member of the Commission staff had full access to your files on Lee
Harvey Oswald?
- Mr. Helms.
- He has, sir.
- Representative Ford.
- They have had the opportunity to personally look at the entire file?
- Mr. Helms.
- We invited them to come out to our building in Langley and actually put the
file on the table so that they could examine it.
- The Chairman.
- I was personally out there, too, and was offered the same opportunity. I did
not avail myself of it because of the time element, but I was offered the same
opportunity.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. Helms, can you explain, according to the limitations of security, the
reasons why we examined materials but did not always take them, in a general
way?
- Mr. Helms.
- Yes; I can.
In our communications between individuals working overseas and in Washington, we
for security reasons have a method of hiding the identities of individuals in
telegrams and dispatches by the use of pseudonyms and cryptonyms. For this
reason, we never allow the original documents to leave our premises. However, on
the occasion when the representatives of the Commission staff looked at these
files, we sat there and identified these pseudonyms and cryptonyms and related
them to the proper names of the individuals concerned, so that they would know
exactly what the correspondence said.
- Mr. Rankin.
- By that you mean the representatives of the Commission were able to satisfy
themselves that they had all of the information for the benefit of the
Commission without disclosing matters that would be a threat to security; is
that right?
- Mr. Helms.
- It is my understanding that they were satisfied.
- Representative Ford.
- Mr. McCone, do you have full authority from higher authority to make full
disclosure to this Commission of any information in the files of the Central
Intelligence Agency?
- Mr. McCone.
- That is right. It is my understanding that it is the desire of higher
authority that this Commission shall have access to all information of every
nature in our files or in the minds of employees of Central Intelligence
Agency.
- Representative Ford.
- On the basis of that authority, you or the Agency have made a full
disclosure?
- Mr. McCone.
- That is correct.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. Helms, I have handed you Exhibits 868 and 869 directed to you acting for
the Agency, the first one being from the Commission to you and the second one,
869, being your answer in regard to your full and complete disclosure in regard
to your records; isn't that correct?
- Mr. Helms.
- That is correct. May I say, Mr. Rankin, that any information, though,
subsequent to this correspondence which we may obtain we will certainly continue
to forward to the Commission.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Thank you. Mr. Chief Justice, I ask leave to have those two exhibits, 868
and 869, received in evidence at this time.
- The Chairman.
- They may be admitted under those numbers.
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 868 and 869 were marked for identification and
received in evidence.)
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. McCone, if I may return to you, I will now ask you if you have any
credible information that you know of or evidence causing you to believe that
there is any or was any conspiracy either domestic or foreign in connection with
the assassination of President Kennedy?
- Mr. McCone.
- No; I have no information, Mr. Rankin, that would lead me to believe or
conclude that a conspiracy existed.
- Representative Ford.
- Did the CIA make an investigation of this aspect of the assassination?
- Mr. McCone.
- We made an investigation of all developments after the assassination which
came to our attention which might possibly have indicated a conspiracy, and we
determined after these investigations, which were made promptly and immediately,
that we had no evidence to support such an assumption.
- Representative Ford.
- Did the Central Intelligence Agency have any contact with Oswald during the
period of his life in the Soviet Union?
- Mr. McCone.
- No; not to my knowledge, nor to the knowledge of those who would have been
in a position to have made such contact, nor according to any record we
have.
- Representative Ford.
- Did the Central Intelligence Agency have any personal contact with Oswald
subsequent to his return to the United States?
- Mr. McCone.
- No.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. McCone, your Agency made a particular investigation in connection with
any allegations about a conspiracy involving the Soviet Union or people
connected with Cuba, did you not?
- Mr. McCone.
- Yes, we did. We made a thorough, a very thorough, investigation of
information that came to us concerning an alleged trip that Oswald made to
Mexico City during which time he made contact with the Cuban Embassy in Mexico
City in an attempt to gain transit privileges from Mexico City to the Soviet
Union via Havana. We investigated that thoroughly.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Do you also include in your statement that you found no evidence of
conspiracy in all of that investigation?
- Mr. McCone.
- That is correct.
- Mr. Rankin.
- And also the investigation you made of the period that Lee Harvey Oswald was
in the Soviet Union?
- Mr. McCone.
- That is right.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. McCone----
- Mr. Dulles.
- Could I ask one question there? Does your answer, Mr. McCone, include a
negation of any belief that Oswald was working for or on behalf of the Soviet
Union at any time when you were in contact with him or knew about his
activities?
- Mr. McCone.
- As I have already stated, we were never in contact with Oswald. We have no
evidence that he was working for or on behalf of the Soviet Union at any time.
According to his diary, Oswald did receive a subsidy from the Soviet Red Cross
which we assume had the approval of the authorities. Such a payment does not
indicate to us that he even worked for the Soviet intelligence services.
Furthermore, we have no other evidence that he ever worked for Soviet
intelligence.
- Representative Ford.
- Is the Central Intelligence Agency continuing any investigation into this
area?
- Mr. McCone.
- No, because, at the present time, we have no information in our files that
we have not exhaustively investigated and disposed of to our satisfaction.
Naturally, any new information that might come into our hands would be
investigated promptly.
- Mr. Helms.
- I simply wanted to add that we obviously are interested in anything we can
pick up applying to this case, and anything we get will be immediately sent to
the Commission, so that we haven't stopped our inquiries or the picking up of
any information we can from people who might have it. This is on a continuing
basis.
- Representative Ford.
- In other words, the case isn't closed.
- Mr. Helms.
- It is not closed as far as we are concerned.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Would that be true, Mr. Helms, even after the Commission completed its
report, you would keep the matter open if there was anything new that developed
in the future that could be properly presented to the authorities?
- Mr. Helms.
- Yes. I would assume the case will never be closed.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. McCone, do you have any ideas about improving the security provisions
for the President that you would like to relate to the Commission?
- Mr. McCone.
- Well, this is, in my opinion, a very important question which I am sure this
Commission will--has and will--devote a considerable amount of thought to, and
undoubtedly have some recommendations as part of its report.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Your Agency does have an important function in some aspects.
- Mr. McCone.
- We have a very important function in connection with the foreign travels of
the President, and I would like to inform the Commission as to how we discharge
that responsibility by quickly reviewing the chronology of the Central
Intelligence Agency's support of President Kennedy's visit to Mexico City from
the 29th of June to the 2d of July 1962.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Will you please do that.
- The Chairman.
- Director, is that a security matter?
- Mr. McCone.
- No. I think I can handle this for the record.
- The Chairman.
- Very well.
- Mr. McCone.
- If I have to make a remark or two off the record I will ask that
privilege.
That visit, as I said, started on the 29th of June. On the 28th of April, in
anticipation of the visit, instructions were transmitted to Mexico for the
Ambassador to coordinate planning and informational guidance for the advance
party of the Secret Service.
We asked that the Secret Service be given information on local groups and
persons who would cause disturbances, embarrassments or physical harm, an
estimate of the determination and. ability of the Mexican government to prevent
incidents, and preparation for special briefings to the Embassy officials and
the Secret Service, and such additional support and communications personnel
that might be required.
These instructions were given two months before the trip.
On the 15th of May, we received confirmed information that the President would
visit Mexico on the specific dates. On the 1st of June the Secret Service was
supplied by the Agency with the detailed survey of Mexican security forces that
would be called upon to protect the President.
Friendly and allied governments were informed of the visit and their cooperation
and pertinent informational support was solicited. From this date through the 2d
of July daily information reports were furnished to the State Department, the
Secret Service, the FBI and the military services.
That is from the 1st of June to the 2d of July, a period of 31, 32 days. On the
8th of June the Secret Service advance party was briefed in detail by a group of
officers of the Agency on the Mexican government's plans for the protection of
the President, including current information on the size, strength and
capabilities of potential troublemakers.
Hazardous locations and times in the planned itinerary were identified,
political and economic issues that might be invoked by hostile elements for
demonstrations were specified.
On the 11th of June, the Secret Service advance party left for Mexico supported
by additional security personnel to assist in coordinating an informational
report and the followup activity required.
Especially prepared national intelligence estimates on the current security
conditions in Mexico was approved by the United States Intelligence Board on the
13th of June.
On the 15th of June arrangements were completed to reenforce communications
facilities. On the 24th of June a conference at the State Department was held at
the request of the President for reviewing security measures, and this meeting I
attended personally, and reported to the State Department on the essence of all
that had gone before.
Emergency contingency plans were discussed and a consensus was reached that the
President should make the visit as scheduled.
On the 27th of June, a final updated special national intelligence estimate was
prepared, and this indicated no basic changes in the security assessment that
Mexican government was prepared to cope with foreseeable security
contingencies.
On the 28th of June, a final briefing report was prepared for the Director's use
which indicated the security precautions of the Mexican government had
effectively forestalled major organized incidents, and our informed estimate was
that the President would receive a great welcome.
The report was presented to the President personally by the Director at noon in
a final meeting prior to departure on this trip.
From the 29th of June to the 2d of July in Washington headquarters, headquarters
components remained on a 24-hour alert for close support of the embassy and the
Secret Service.
So, not only was the Central Intelligence Agency and its various components
involved in this for a period of 2 months in close collaboration with the Secret
Service, but by bringing in the United States Intelligence Board we brought in
all of the intelligence assets of the United States Government in connection
with this particular trip. I thought this procedure which is followed regularly
on all trips that the President makes out of the country would be of interest to
the Commission.
- The Chairman.
- That is the normal format of your procedures?
- Mr. McCone.
- Yes.
- The Chairman.
- When the President goes abroad?
- Mr. McCone.
- Yes, I selected this one. The same was true of his trip to Caracas or Paris
or elsewhere.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. McCone, in your investigation of the Oswald matter did you use the same
approach or a comparable approach to a liaison with the other intelligence
agencies of government to try to discover anything that might involve your
jurisdiction.
- Mr. McCone.
- Yes. We were in very close touch with the Federal Bureau of Investigation
and with the Secret Service on a 24-hour basis at all points, both domestic and
foreign, where information had been received which might have a bearing on this
problem.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Assassination?
- Mr. McCone.
- Assassination.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Do you have an opinion, Mr. McCone, as to whether or not the liaison between
the intelligence agencies of the United States Government might be improved if
they had better mechanical, computer or other facilities of that type, and also
some other ideas or methods of dealing with each other?
- Mr. McCone.
- There is a great deal of improvement of information that might be of
importance in a matter of this kind through the use of computers and mechanical
means of handling files, and you, Mr. Chief Justice, saw some of our
installations and that was only a beginning of what really can be done.
- The Chairman.
- Yes; I did.
- Mr. McCone.
- I would certainly urge that all departments of government that are involved
in this area adopt the most modern methods of automatic data processing with
respect to the personnel files and other files relating to individuals. This
would be helpful. But I emphasize that a computer will not replace the man, and
therefore, we must have at all levels a complete exchange of information and
cooperation between agencies where they share this responsibility, and in going
through this chronology, it points out the type of exchange and cooperation that
the Central Intelligence Agency tries to afford both the Secret Service and the
Federal Bureau of Investigation in matters where we have a common
responsibility.
I would like to emphasize the very great importance of this exchange, which is
not always easily accomplished because it is cumbersome.
Sometimes it becomes involved in distracting people from other duties, and so on
and so forth.
I have given a good deal of thought to the matter of some incentives to bring
out informers, thinking about the old informer statutes in which some of them
are still on the books, in which people were rewarded for informing when others
conducted themselves in a damaging way.
- Mr. Dulles.
- Smuggling cases?
- Mr. McCone.
- Smuggling cases. But I believe that something could be done. I call to the
attention of this Commission one of the laws relating to atomic energy, namely
the Atomic Weapons Reward Act of 15 July 1955 wherein a substantial reward is
offered for the apprehension of persons responsible for the clandestine
introduction or manufacture in the United States of such nuclear material or
atomic weapons. It is suggested that the Commission may wish to recommend that
original but similar legislation be enacted which would induce individuals to
furnish information bearing on Presidential security by offering a substantial
reward and preferential treatment. Substantial reward could represent a
significant inducement even to staff officers and personnel of secret
associations and state security organs abroad who are charged with assassination
and sabotage. We have information that such personnel and police state
apparatuses have expressed. and, in certain cases, acted upon their repugnan!
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ce for such work and for the political system which requires such duties to be
performed.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Is it your belief, Mr. McCone, that the methods for exchange of information
between intelligence agencies of the Government could be materially
improved.
- Mr. McCone.
- I think the exchange between the Central Intelligence Agency and the Federal
Bureau of Investigation or the Secret Service is quite adequate. I am not
informed as to whether the exchanges between the Secret Service and the FBI are
equally adequate. I have not gone into that. I would have no means to know.
Certainly it is most important that it be done.
- Mr. Dulles.
- Looking back now that you have the full record, do you feel that you
received from the State Department adequate information at the time that they
were aware of Oswald's defection and later activities in the Soviet Union, did
you get at the time full information from the State Department on those
particular subjects?
- Mr. McCone.
- Well, I am not sure that we got full information, Mr. Dulles. The fact is we
had very little information in our files.
- Mr. Helms.
- It was probably minimal.
- Representative Ford.
- Why did that happen?
- Mr. Helms.
- I am not sure, Mr. Ford. I can only assume that the State Department had a
limited amount. Interestingly enough, it is far enough back now so that it's
very hard to find people who were in the Moscow Embassy at the time familiar
with the case, so in trying to run this down one comes to a lot of dead ends and
I, therefore, would not like to hazard any guess.
- Representative Ford.
- Whose responsibility is it; is it CIA's responsibility to obtain the
information or State Department's responsibility to supply it to Central
Intelligence and to others.
- Mr. McCone.
- With respect to a U.S. citizen who goes abroad, it is the responsibility of
the State Department through its various echelons, consular service and
embassies and so forth.
For a foreigner coming into the United States, who might be of suspicious
character, coming here for espionage, subversion, assassination and other acts
of violence, we would, and we do exchange this information immediately with the
FBI.
- Representative Ford.
- But in this particular case, Oswald in the Soviet Union, whose
responsibility was it to transmit the information, whatever it was, to the
Central Intelligence Agency?
- Mr. McCone.
- Well, it would be the State Department's responsibility to do that. Whether
there really exists an order or orders that information on an American citizen
returning from a foreign country be transmitted to CIA, I don't believe there
are such regulations which exist.
- Mr. Helms.
- I don't believe they do, either.
- Mr. McCone.
- I am not sure they should.
- Representative Ford.
- It wouldn't be your recommendation that you, the head of Central
Intelligence Agency, should have that information?
- Mr. Dulles.
- In a case of an American defecting to a Communist country, shouldn't you
have it?
- Mr. McCone.
- Certainly certain types of information. What we ought to be careful of here,
would be to rather clearly define the type of information which should be
transmitted, because after all, there are hundreds of thousands or millions of
Americans going back and forth every year, and those records are the records of
the Immigration Service, the Passport Division.
- Mr. Dulles.
- I was thinking of a person who having defected might, of course, have become
an agent and then reinserted into the United States and if you were informed of
the first steps to that you might help to prevent the second step.
- Mr. McCone.
- Well, certainly information on defectors or possible recruitments should be,
and I have no question is being, transmitted.
- Representative Ford.
- What I was getting at was whether the procedures were adequate or
inadequate, whether the administration was proper or improper in this particular
case, and if some files you have that started when he attempted to defect are
inadequate why we ought to know, and we ought to know whether the basic
regulations were right or wrong, whether the administration was proper or
improper, that is what I am trying to find out. I would like your comment on
it.
- Mr. McCone.
- Well, I think the basic regulations should be examined very carefully to be
sure that they are copper-riveted down and absolutely tight. What I am saying,
however, is because of the vast number of Americans who go abroad and stay in
foreign countries for indefinite periods of time, it would be an impossible task
to transmit all information available in the State department and Immigration
Service as files to the Central Intelligence Agency. It would not be a
productive exercise. What must be transmitted and is being transmitted, while I
cannot recite the exact regulations is information that is, becomes, known to
the various embassies of suspicious Americans that might have been recruited and
defected, and then returned so that they would be agents in place.
- Representative Ford.
- In this case, Oswald attempted to defect, he did not, he subsequently sought
the right to return to the United States, he had contact with the Embassy. Was
the Central Intelligence Agency informed of these steps, step by step, by the
Department of State?
- Mr. McCone.
- You might answer that.
- Mr. Helms.
- Mr. Ford, in order to answer this question precisely I would have to have
the file in front of me. I have not looked at it in some time so I don't have it
all that clearly in mind. But it is my impression that we were not informed step
by step. When I say that there is no requirement that I am aware of that the
State Department should inform us and when I said a moment ago that we had
minimal information from them, this was not in any sense a critical comment but
a statement of fact.
But an American going to the American Embassy would be handled by the Embassy
officials, either consular or otherwise. This would be a matter well within the
purview of the State Department to keep all the way through, because we do not
have responsibility in the Central Intelligence Agency for the conduct or
behavior or anything else of American citizens when they are abroad unless there
is some special consideration applying to an individual, or someone in higher
authority requests assistance from us. So that the State Department, I think,
quite properly would regard this matter as well within their purview to handle
themselves within the Embassy or from the Embassy back to the Department of
State without involving the Agency in it while these events were occurring.
- Representative Ford.
- I think it could be argued, however, that the uniqueness of this individual
case was such that the Department of State might well have contacted the Central
Intelligence Agency to keep them abreast of the developments as they transpired.
This is not--and when I say this, I mean the Oswald case---is not an ordinary
run-of-the-mill-type of case. It is far from it. Even back in the time, well,
from the time he went, and particularly as time progressed, and he made
application to return, there is nothing ordinary about the whole situation.
- Mr. McCone.
- That is quite correct; there is no question about that.
- Representative Ford.
- And I am only suggesting that if the regulations were not adequate at the
time and are not now, maybe something ought to be done about it.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Mr. McCone, when you said that supplying all of the information about U.S.
citizens who went abroad and came back to the country would not be a profitable
exercise, did that comment include the thought that such an intrusion upon all
citizens would be questionable?
- Mr. McCone.
- Such an intrusion?
- Mr. Rankin.
- Upon their right to travel.
- Mr. McCone.
- Well, I think this would have a bearing on it. I did not have that
particular matter in mind when I made that statement, however. I was just
thinking of the----
- Mr. Rankin.
- Burden?
- Mr. McCone.
- Of the burden of vast numbers involved.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Do you have any thought in regard to whether it would be an intrusion upon
their rights?
- Mr. McCone.
- Well, that would be a matter of how it was handled. Certainly, if it was
handled in a way that the counterpart of providing the information was to impose
restrictions on them, then it would be an intrusion on their rights.
- Mr. Rankin.
- Yes.
- Senator Cooper.
- May I inquire?
- The Chairman.
- Senator Cooper.
- Senator Cooper.
- I missed the first part of Mr. McCone's testimony; I went to answer a quorum
call. Perhaps the question has been asked. It has been brought into evidence
that a number of people in the Embassy talked to Oswald when he first defected
and the various communications with the Embassy and, of course, when he left to
come back to the United States. Have we been able to ascertain the names of
officials in the Embassy or employees with whom Oswald talked on these various
occasions?
- Mr. McCone.
- I am not familiar with them; no.
- Mr. Helms.
- Neither am I, sir.
- Mr. McCone.
- I presume that the Department's inquires have covered it.
- Senator Cooper.
- Is it possible to ascertain the names of those employees?
- Mr. Rankin.
- Senator Cooper, I can answer that. We have inquired of the State Department
for that information, and are in the process of obtaining it all.
- Senator Cooper.
- Taking into consideration your answers to the previous question, would it
have been possible in your judgment to have secured more comprehensive
information about the activities of Oswald in Russia?
- Mr. McCone.
- It would not have been possible for the Central Intelligence Agency to have
secured such information because we do not have the resources to gain such
information.
- The Chairman.
- Anything more? Congressman Ford?
- Representative Ford.
- Did the Central Intelligence Agency investigate any aspects of Oswald's trip
to Mexico?
- Mr. McCone.
- Yes; we did.
- Representative Ford.
- Can you give us any information on that?
- Mr. McCone.
- Yes; we were aware that Oswald did make a trip to Mexico City and it was our
judgment that he was there in the interest of insuring transit privileges and
that he made contact with the Cuban Embassy while he was there.
We do not know the precise results of his effort, but we assumed, because he
returned to the United States, he was unsuccessful. We have examined to every
extent we can and using all resources available to us every aspect of his
activity and we could not verify that he was there for any other purpose or that
his trip to Mexico was in any way related to his later action in assassinating
President Kennedy.
- Representative Ford.
- Did the Central Intelligence Agency make any investigation of any alleged
connection between Oswald and the Castro government?
- Mr. McCone.
- Yes; we investigated that in considerable detail, because information came
to us through a third party that he had carried on a rather odd discussion with
Cuban officials in the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City. The allegation was that he
had received under rather odd circumstances a substantial amount of money in the
Cuban Embassy, and the statement was made by one who claimed to have seen this
transaction take place. After a very thorough and detailed examination of the
informer, it finally turned out by the informer's own admission that the
information was entirely erroneous, and was made for the purpose of advancing
the informer's own standing with the Central Intelligence Agency and the U.S.
Government and it was subsequently retracted by the informer in its
entirety.
- Representative Ford.
- Was there any other evidence or alleged evidence----
- Mr. McCone.
- Parenthetically, I might add a word for the record that the date that the
informer gave as to the date in time of this alleged transaction was impossible
because through other, from other, information we determined that Oswald was in
the United States at that particular time.
Representative Form. Did the Central Intelligence Agency ever make an
investigation or did it ever check on Mr. Ruby's trip to Cuba or any connections
he might have had with the Castro government?
- Mr. McCone.
- Not to my knowledge.
- Mr. Helms.
- We had no information.
- Mr. McCone.
- We had no information.
- Representative Ford.
- Central Intelligence Agency has no information of any connections of Ruby to
the Castro government?
- Mr. McCone.
- That is right.
- Representative Ford.
- Did you ever make a check of that?
- Mr. Helms.
- We checked our records to see if we had information and found we did
not.
- Representative Ford.
- What would that indicate, the fact that you checked your records?
- Mr. Helms.
- That would indicate that if we had received information from our own
resources, that the Cubans were involved with Mr. Ruby in something which would
be regarded as subversive, we would then have it in our files. But we received
no such information, and I don't, by saying this, mean that he did not. I simply
say we don't have any record of this.
- Representative Ford.
- That is all.
- The Chairman.
- Director, thank you very much, sir, for coming and being with us and we
appreciate the help your department has given to us.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Source:
Warren Commission Hearings, Vol. V, p. 120.
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